Curse

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

If a Mesmer that can count casts a Diversion on you, you're basically losing your spike for the 6 seconds additional, or you're going to lose your spike for the next minute. A Ranger could interrupt that with one hand down his pants, especially with such a long chain.

While blind needs to be maintained, hexes don't need to be maintained as much but still do?

And if you don't understand that a Warrior is a much more flexible threat than any caster will be, you apparently need to learn more, since that is one of the basics of GW PvP strategy/tactics - one might even classify it as basic game mechanics.

Har har. Very funny.

I'm sorry, but we opt for effectiveness. If it's not fully effective, we will point it out.

You haven't even tried to. Half of you started out assuming it was a spike, despite the word 'pressure' in the name. Then you started telling me warriors do more damage. They don't. Then you started telling me warrior damage is better because it can be countered more easily, and that takes effort, I don't know where you were going with that.

As for diversion, what, pray tell, makes warriors immune? There's no one skill here that shuts me out. There's 1 skill that means another one won't do as much damage, and there's 2 skills that make it harder for me to manage my energy for a while if I lose them. If a warrior gets rush diverted that's a much bigger hit, and rush is just as predictable, you can actually force it.

Avarre · Dec 22, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

The inherent problem with your build is you are trying to deal DPS with a class line that is not noted for DPS abilities. It is like worst song, played on ugliest guitar.

While it may work, that's not necessarily a sign of effectiveness. Another skillbar with the same purpose but utilizing a skill line that allows them to DPS better will be superior for two reasons. Firstly, the ability to produce more DPS, and secondly, they will not require as many skills to do so, allowing them to bring far more utility than your build. For example, Mind Blast eles that can carry run buffs and blinding flash.

Water is typically a utility/support attribute with minor spike power.

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The inherent problem with your build is you are trying to deal DPS with a class line that is not noted for DPS abilities. It is like worst song, played on ugliest guitar.

While it may work, that's not necessarily a sign of effectiveness. Another skillbar with the same purpose but utilizing a skill line that allows them to DPS better will be superior for two reasons. Firstly, the ability to produce more DPS, and secondly, they will not require as many skills to do so, allowing them to bring far more utility than your build.

Water is typically a utility/support attribute with minor spike power.

The game changes. Water eles may not have dealt sustained damage before, this build does, and more than most, including many that are used for just that purpose in pvp.

moko · Dec 22, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

why do you have to ruin threads with bullshit?

Stormlord Alex · Dec 22, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

why do you have to ruin threads with bullshit?

... Is it caturday yet?

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

To be honest at this point I'm just glad at least one person looked at it. If a few people had skipped the 'god of guild wars' rubbish and assessed the build for what it is or could be, I'd have a lot more respect for this community. As it is, all I get is 'no you're wrong, this is how it's always been, I don't need to think'.

Lhim · Dec 22, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

I like the build. Something else for a change. A lot of people don't get it when it's a bit different from standard, so don't bother with them.

LightningHell · Dec 22, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Child

You haven't even tried to. Half of you started out assuming it was a spike, despite the word 'pressure' in the name. Then you started telling me warriors do more damage. They don't. Then you started telling me warrior damage is better because it can be countered more easily, and that takes effort, I don't know where you were going with that.

Firstly, appreciate that you use skills on a 8 second recharge. For full effectiveness, you're going to use those skills on recharge, which in turn gives a spike every 8 seconds, a 3 second spike with 5 seconds in between. I don't care if you call it pressure or what, it's still damage on a recharge.

Secondly, appreciate that Warriors deal 5 DPS less when they don't use any attack skills, and a Warrior without obstruction is going to charge his spike in 5 seconds or so, however unlikely that is.

Then appreciate that Warriors are a much larger threat when attack skills are factored in play, as it has slightly lower DPS when not using skills, and when using skills it can spike really hard. It also requires sustained hate for it to be reduced to a level where the effective damage is insignificant.

Now let's talk about the hate. Your build is easily hated out by template mesmers and/or rangers. A Warrior is also easily hated out by a template melee hate character, but take in mind that the melee hate character is dependant on other characters to do stuff - it does nothing but shut down melee. Melee can also be nullified somewhat by cripple - however, that requires quite a large investment.

Quote:

As for diversion, what, pray tell, makes warriors immune? There's no one skill here that shuts me out. There's 1 skill that means another one won't do as much damage, and there's 2 skills that make it harder for me to manage my energy for a while if I lose them. If a warrior gets rush diverted that's a much bigger hit, and rush is just as predictable, you can actually force it.

And no, Diversion does not affect Warriors as much. You can't Divert a normal attack. Even if you divert Rush, he'll still be hitting your face, and you'll still be kiting. He just doesn't have the tools to chase you anymore.

Besides, a Warrior getting diverted...?

A minor point to consider that all your skills are armor dependant, while a Warrior's spike is not as much.

If a single one of your skills is diverted, then you lose quite a bit of your damage. Not so for a Warrior.

And you still haven't responded to your damage being vastly more inflexible.

Quote:

To be honest at this point I'm just glad at least one person looked at it. If a few people had skipped the 'god of guild wars' rubbish and assessed the build for what it is or could be, I'd have a lot more respect for this community. As it is, all I get is 'no you're wrong, this is how it's always been, I don't need to think'.

To be honest at this point I'm just glad at least other posters know what I'm talking about. If a few people actually bothered to read my arguments and understood them, I'd have a lot more respect for this community, As it is, all I get is 'no you're wrong, I have my logic, and since it's me, it must be right, I don't need to think'.

...Seriously.

Silk Weaver · Dec 22, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Casters are much easier to counter than melee, as a rule. Look at all the counters to warriors (yes, there are lots of them)

Aegis, SoD, etc etc etc

Hexes

Blind

Snares

Hexes are a rather soft counter. Hit through shadow of fear. Hit through price of faliure. Hit through reckless haste. At worst you stand there and body block. What better time than to show off your snazzy new shield at your opponent's face?

Blind/Weakness/Cripple are hard/semi-hard but extremely short term counters. You land them before spikes or when you have the luxury. They get pulled off quickly-- this is why nobody claimed that DAZE is a counter to your build. That's just retarded.

Finally snares. Ha ha! How funny, since that's exactly what we told you water eles are for. Snares. Snares on eles work because they are going to recharge every 2 seconds with water trident, shackles, or whatever bullshit emos run these days. Blurred Vision 2 second cast might make me ranger again.

And then Aegis gets nerfed because it should be. Active > Passive.

Anyway, you will see that these counters all take effort to maintain-- in fact, maintaining these counters is BASICALLY WHAT GUILD WARS IS ABOUT. That's why people used to run Divert Hex, that's why we have convert/purge, why BL, why RC, why Veil, which kinda cues cancel on that unlucky necro who just started casting a 3 sec hex on the warrior. I mean, you can cast diversion on the guy before he finishes.

Countering these counters is also part of what makes the game work. You had Mirror, you have diversion on the casters (makes sure casters like yours will NEVER be able to chain spells, unless you feel like waiting for a minute), Power Leak, Power Block, and of course Dshot/Savage/Magebane.

So those counters in turn get counters.

But as I have said, these are all soft counters that need to be maintained. 1 second later blind will be removed, 4 seconds later, blinding surge will be diverted and dshot, and then you'll need to run back to the ward, depending on whether it got pblock, so on and so forth. The warrior in the mean time is doing his job choosing the right target, spiking when the moment comes, body blocking, and pressuring. The utility of the rest of the team helps them create weak points or allow them to deal their DPS. When the spike comes, they push the damage output a bit higher.

Now, casters as DPS.

Pblock.

Done. Hard counter, right there. Diversion, Dshot, so on and so forth. HARD counters.

Damage from a caster is much harder to maintain. You can remove hexes in a jiffy, slam in a veil, mend touch, rc, dismiss. What can you do when shatterstone gets dshot? diverted? What do you do? WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW? What if you're getting spiked? You run the hell back and then start casting again. Warriors? You hit rush to cancel frenzy, counter spike to cancel their frenzy, and continue chopping like nothing happened.

I hate shatter stone. It can neither spike nor pressure. Okay, they're used in spikes. I've been forced to use them several times. But it's a gimmick spike, not a balanced spike. I mean, there's so much skill in mashing 123, and then deepfreezing or maelstroming now and then, mirite?

Let's assume perfect dummy scenario with skills. Warrior wins. They have more DPS AND Spike, assuming no interference.

Let's assume real life scenario. Warrior still wins. They are harder to shut down. The only reason your warriors are shut down by the enemy team is because either the warrior sucks or your teams utility fails to support the warriors.

Tab · Dec 22, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Wow. There's copious amounts of fail in this thread.

LightningHell · Dec 22, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Hexes are a rather soft counter. Hit through shadow of fear. Hit through price of faliure. Hit through reckless haste. At worst you stand there and body block. What better time than to show off your snazzy new shield at your opponent's face?

I love how I missed that.

ZenRgy · Dec 22, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Face it, your build is a spike unless you decided to wait a second+ between casting which would just make it a lot of fail pressure, also if you're running Shatterstone, follow up with [skill]Freezing Gust[/skill].

Also, looking at DPS - with a warrior or any martial class, you have to think about crits and sunder crits, you can't achieve crits on spells.

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

This is more reasoned. Thankyou.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Firstly, appreciate that you use skills on a 8 second recharge. For full effectiveness, you're going to use those skills on recharge, which in turn gives a spike every 8 seconds, a 3 second spike with 5 seconds in between. I don't care if you call it pressure or what, it's still damage on a recharge.

Secondly, appreciate that Warriors deal 5 DPS less when they don't use any attack skills, and a Warrior without obstruction is going to charge his spike in 5 seconds or so, however unlikely that is.

Then appreciate that Warriors are a much larger threat when attack skills are factored in play, as it has slightly lower DPS when not using skills, and when using skills it can spike really hard. It also requires sustained hate for it to be reduced to a level where the effective damage is insignificant.

Now let's talk about the hate. Your build is easily hated out by template mesmers and/or rangers. A Warrior is also easily hated out by a template melee hate character, but take in mind that the melee hate character is dependant on other characters to do stuff - it does nothing but shut down melee. Melee can also be nullified somewhat by cripple - however, that requires quite a large investment.

And no, Diversion does not affect Warriors as much. You can't Divert a normal attack. Even if you divert Rush, he'll still be hitting your face, and you'll still be kiting. He just doesn't have the tools to chase you anymore.

Besides, a Warrior getting diverted...?

A minor point to consider that all your skills are armor dependant, while a Warrior's spike is not as much.

If a single one of your skills is diverted, then you lose quite a bit of your damage. Not so for a Warrior.

And you still haven't responded to your damage being vastly more inflexible.

I'll go through and address the points you raise.

I'd like you to keep in mind that we are comparing a two different styles of pressure here however. One is a midline character.

He has to be dealt with, because just like a warrior, if left alone he will really put some hurt on anyone he catches out. He is quite difficult to deal with because the more effective ways to do so require midline characters to extend further than they would have to if they were trying to deal with the melee.

What I would have really liked is for a few people to look at it and say 'not a bad idea, let's see if I can make it work in x environment with a few changes'. See the reason I would have liked that is because I have had a lot of success with it, so I know the idea is sound, it just needs some purpose.

I know it would be a bad runner even with armor of mist and mending touch or something, because rangers would still rape you. I know it can't stand in the front line, even with 102 armor from armor of mist it simply doesn't have the survivability of a warrior. Besides, even with an enchanting mod, armor of mist has 5 seconds downtime in every 30, and pausing to reapply alleviates pressure on the enemy.

If you are anywhere near it, you are just as vulnerable as though you were standing right next to a warrior. That's not going to force people to kite though, since they can't really.

It spikes harder than a warrior, and it deals more consistent damage, being that it is able to do so against targets that are blocking, kiting, etc.

I know you don't agree with me on this but simply from my own experience I have found myself able to deal my damage much more consistently than when playing my warriors, so at least give it a try before you decide that. Even on targets with prot spirit up the damage is quite respectable. 2 of the sources won't deal much more than 10% anyway, 1 is 7 points of constant degen.

Without a whole lot of team effort, my warriors haven't come close. In ideal situations, my warriors can match the average output, but that isn't consistent, and usually only happens during spikes, at which point this build overtakes again. It's simply a matter of watching enemy monks. If they are standing still spamming like crazy, you're doing better than if they are throwing a prot, waiting for it to get stripped, then throwing another, or kiting around regaining energy.

The debate here is really whether it does sufficient damage to be considered good pressure. One of us is presenting hypotheticals, one of us has played both pressure melee and this build. All too often enemy monks assume the worst is over once the glowing gaze burning wears off, only to see someone get hit in the face with another shatterstone 3 seconds later.

Yes the damage is largely frontloaded, but it's high enough that even over the course of the recharge it averages out to pressure comparable to a warriors. Most caster builds that can manage that run into energy trouble, which is where they fall down next to adrenaline/normal attacks. With the attunement up, which it isn't always of course, this build regains more energy over the course of the recharge than it spends.

As for diversion, it's no different. You are looking at it from the perspective of 'well warriors can always just do normal attacks'. I am looking at it from the perspective 'well I always have 4 other spells'. There's only 3 skills here that really hurt the builds output. Glyph of immolation being disabled prevents you from blinding and prevents 131 damage. Shatterstone being disabled prevents 210 damage. Steam being disabled prevents you from blinding and prevents 104 damage.

Disabling shatterstone is the only way to slow down the damage more than disabling rush on a warrior, both steam and glyph are comparable, because not only do you lose the speed boost, your frenzy becomes a lot more dangerous to use. So while disabling glyph of immolation may at first look like a great idea, it's not really more harmful to the build than disabling a warriors rush. Who does that? I think it's a lot more resilient than you realize. Of course pb hurts, but that's a pb being used defensively at least. There's a whole list of stuff that hurts melee just as bad, a few of them in the same attribute line :P

Yes, it is true that a warriors skills provide armor ignoring damage, and that's one of the advantages a warrior brings to the table. It's not the only one, this build hardly makes warriors obsolete, they are different classes and have different means of applying their pressure.

The damage is more resilient than it looks at first glance, just because there is strong synergy between some of the abilities doesn't make them reliant on each other. Yes you depend on glyph to apply your conditions, yes those conditions make some of your spells stronger, yes you can still cast them for damage in their weakened forms.

I haven't yet read anything that makes me think 'oh, hmm, the build isn't that good in that situation', any moreso than any other build. Everything has a counter, the build is solid in play. It just lacks purpose, which I was actually hoping to find some help with here, but I guess I'll have to come up with something on my own.

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Like I said, for the guy talking about pblock being a hard counter for 16 seconds or whatever. What would you call SOD? The warrior won't be dealing a lot of damage through that, and if you catch his target as he starts his spike, he is going to lose another charged adrenaline skill. What kind of damage does a warrior do without using skills because his target is blocking them again? 40 dps you say? With 75% blocking on normal attacks? 10? That's a bit less than the ~19 I do with water pblocked hey. Both negligible. How fast is he recharging adrenaline? How fast am I recharging energy? One block on a warriors hit is the same as adding 1.0-1.75 recharge to all his adrenaline skills.

A Leprechaun · Dec 22, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Ok, first of, its a spike build, you are casting a loads of damage skills in as shorter time as possible, its a spike, deal with it.
Secondly, warriors deal better damage, if damage water elementalists were better there would be loads about, but there isn't.
Thridly, please for gods sake, stop double posting, your posts are only ever like 10mins apart, there is an edit button for a reason.

~A Leprechaun~

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Leprechaun

Ok, first of, its a spike build, you are casting a loads of damage skills in as shorter time as possible, its a spike, deal with it.
Secondly, warriors deal better damage, if damage water elementalists were better there would be loads about, but there isn't.
Thridly, please for gods sake, stop double posting, your posts are only ever like 10mins apart, there is an edit button for a reason.

~A Leprechaun~

How does an 8 second cycle with an 11 second recharge equal 'casting a loads of damage skills in as shorter time as possible'? How do you know warriors deal better damage when you haven't 1. tried the build, 2. figured out the numbers instead? How can you flame me for doubleposting instead of editing with grammar like that? Why do you feel the need to troll and just generally disagree?

Silk Weaver · Dec 22, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

See the reason I would have liked that is because I have had a lot of success with it, so I know the idea is sound, it just needs some purpose.

That is such a good way to argue. Presume that you are right, then find evidence to back it up!

And no. Quite a few bits of your "facts" that backs up your argument are wrong.

Edit: Oh, SoD is not a hard counter. SoD only prots 1 target, has a short duration, and COSTS TEN ENERGY. ON A MONK. I'm sure the monk has enough energy to maintain it on all 8 members on the team, right? ALL COUNTERS TO WARRIORS ARE SOFT OR SHORT TERM AND REQUIRES ACTIVE MAINTAINING.

Except for Aegis and like skills. Those skills are stupid and discourage thinking.

Also, you're funny.

You talk about from your experience. Experience with what? RA? AB? TA? Nub GVG?

I don't want to pull a, cough, ad hominem, but if you're going to cite experience, cite experience that counts.

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

The evidence is in the play. As I said. Nice reading comprehension skills there. Even a guardian on the warriors target reduces his dps to what mine is when I have water pblocked. Oh dear it's hard to cast guardian, I might get pblocked! Oh wait, he just pblocked the ele.

Silk Weaver · Dec 22, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Your evidence is obsolete, and you ignore most of the arguments presented. I suggested that -you- read.

Yes. It is hard to cast guadian. Guardian costs 5 energy to a monk. There are usually 6-7 potential targets for a warrior, sometimes 8 if you push into base, and you need to guardian all of them. Have you ever played a monk? Can you really guardian all of them? Also, a warrior can easily hit through guadian; it lasts shorter than the time it takes for you to finish your chian. How funny. Wards are better, but have positional limitations.

Counters to melee are soft. Nothing will change that. Counters to eles are easy. Pdrain + Pleak + MoR can easily sustain it; guradian and hexes cannot be sustained-- they are removed faster than applied, whereas counters to caster tend to counter a good portion of the enemy, and require shut down for the other team to operate properly (mesmer vs mesmer battles, warrior pressure, etc).

What are your experience? You have neglected to deal with -that- particular point.

Moar Edit:

I must go soon, and can't wait for you to finish typing your angry reply.

For your answer, what can do you what your build does better, I answer: Mind Blast. Better damage potential, possibilities of utility due to energy gain, AoE for cleaning NPCs especially after VoD, good speedbuff with Flame Djinn. It also opens itself to the problems I mentioned above. Like your water build, mind blasters are extremely prone to mesmers and rangers, though a bit less so due to massive energy spam and low recharge; they can afford it.

They can also flag and solo npcs or even support in ganks. Yours? Kinda. Not so much. Need speedbuff and good healing. No energy gain, sucks to be you, spamming heal spells. Mystic Regen + Djinn + Attune, is an option, for example. Can you?

Eprod Flag Runners used to do damage support with Lightning Strike, but only IN ADDITION to utility duty such as blinding flash and gale; not pure damage. They do pressure, yes. Damage from eles can support, but they are nothing without their utility, which is flag running and blind/gale.

Therefore, for me to find lots of examples of builds that do what your build does is impossible, since what you want to do is stupid. How can a game allow for a midline character that is more effective than a front line one? Imagine, frontline player > MANY counters. In order for frontline characters to be used at all, they need to have an effectivenss advantage, and GW is based entirely off frontline.

Imagine an RTS. Ranged units always have a statistical disadvantage when compared to non ranged, because they take less microing.

Mind Blast is the only significant example because it is a stupid class. It is strong but easy to shut down, and depend on good team coordination, which is cool and dandy, but a class that does damage from range should never be more effective than one that does it close up. Unavoidable Restrictions/Risk must result in Additional Gain.

Another Child · Dec 22, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Your evidence is obsolete, and you ignore most of the arguments presented. I suggested that -you- read.

I reply to rational posts, I might be a bit dismissive of crap like 'pblock is a hard counter, blocking is a soft counter', when 50% block rate reduces warrior dps to the same level as mine when I am pblocked, not to mention all the other melee counters that can and will be stacked on top of prots/wards, while I'm left to set people on fire after the pblock.

The fact is that the build does the same damage as warriors on stationary targets when there is no risk of them taking damage, more damage against mobile targets who fight back. We can titfortat about counters all day long, but before we do, let's at least establish the output of the build.

As for experience, I can safely say that I have more experience running this build in any environment than you